25 Chirreb 4385: Since We Don't Have a Good Plan

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

I stopped paying close attention after a bit because listening to the ghempoch was awfully tedious and my mind wandered.

Actually I started browsing through my scroll. It's just amazing how much weird weird stuff you can find in here and gavinfox had shown me these GREAT writings about extradimensional Locador which were fascinating. They were completely wrong for my universe of course and yet still consistent and neat and I kept wanting to read more. I ran into a dead end though and instead of backtracking I decided to write about the earlier conversation so Boomsy would know STILL NOT DEAD. I found a tree stump out of sight of the ghempoch and made my paws into hands so I could write.

I was reading the suggestions and stuff when Outcast trundled over and sluiced cold water down my back. "Thanks!" I said.

"You were looking a bit dry there," he told me.

I pushed my scroll up to make sure I didn't drip on it. "Uh huh I kinda wasn't paying attention thanks again how's it going with the ghempoch?"

"Badly. Secret is trying to reason with it. She introduced it to Trust."

"... he didn't try to kill Trust did he?"

"No. He has thus far conceded that he doesn't want to kill any particular individual prime. Just large groups of primes. Secret is trying to explain that large groups are composed entirely of individuals."

"... and he doesn't believe her?"

"No, I think he believes her. But he's not persuaded that it matters. What are you up to?"

"Talking to my extradimensional friends about it," I said.

"Oh? What do they have to say? That one who suggested the traps sounded knowledgeable -- Sleeth, was he?"

"Tuftears uh huh he thinks we should mindrape the ghempoch."

"WHAT? Why?"

I shrugged. "I don't know they're from another dimension and they all seem to think Mentador is wonderful for some reason. Maybe Kvarse runs Mentador for their universe?"

Outcast blinked at me as he tried to wrap his mind around that idea. "Is that even possible?"

"I guess? Sythyry went to a heaven Mircannis had made and they only had three gods and they were doing different jobs from the ones here."

From back in the shelter of the trees, I saw Nightbloom beckoning to us so I rolled up my scroll and put it back into its case to keep dry. I let my hands revert back to paws as Outcast and I trotted on all fours through thick translucent pink reeds of undergrowth. We met Nightbloom under the red canopy of the trees. She wanted to know how it was going too. We told her. Nightbloom sighed. "We cannot wait forever. With it trapped like this. Ask Secret to explain. What she hopes to accomplish?"

I ambled back to the ghempoch's side. He was saying to Secret, "They're just disgusting! It doesn't matter how nice a given one or two of them may be, the idea of dozens of them grouped together, infecting the branch with their prime buildings and prime enchantments and prime farms is intolerable!"

"But they have wizards more powerful than a nendrai. Their city walls are practically impregnable. You can't make a real dent in their population. All you're doing is making them angry and hurting nonprime bystanders -- like us norren! -- in the process."

"I am sorry for what I did to your friends, but they should have said something. And if the primes have grown so powerful, all the more reason to attack them now, before they're even more dangerous."

I pawed at Secret as the ghempoch started ranting more. "C'mon we need to talk for a minute. You too, Trust."

We all gathered to talk out of earshot of the ghempoch. His hearing probably wasn't that good with his ears underwater anyway. "I don't see how it's any good trying to reason with him his hatred of primes isn't rational it's probably god-given," I said to Secret. "You can't talk him out of it."

"I know," she said.

"Then what are you trying to do?" Outcast asked.

"Get him to admit that it's irrational and harmful to him. I'm making progress, I think," Secret answered.

"So what if he does he's still going to think Accanax needs him to try to kill us you can't change his mind about that."

"Yes, I can," the norren said. "But he has to want to have it changed."

"But it's god-given you can't convince AGGGHHH you're going to use MENTADOR aren't you?"

"If he wants me to."

Nightbloom hefted her spear. "That's it. I am ending this." She started for the riverbank and the ghempoch.

Secret leaped in front of her. "No! You promised!"

Outcast ran alongside Nightbloom on the other side. "Please, wait."

"And listen to this talk. Of destroying its mind with Mentador?"

"I'm not going to destroy his mind! I'm going to help him get rid of a compulsion he doesn't want anyway," Secret said. "And if you kill him his mind'll be destroyed anyway. How is that better?"

"Better a clean death. Than a half-life. Disfigured by Mentador."

Trust whimpered. "There has to be another way."

I twisted my scrollcase. "One of my friends did have an idea."

Outcast looked at me askance. "I thought they wanted to use Mentador too?"

"Noooooo that was just Tuftsy. And Gavsy. And maybe Siege I forget anyway there was another one with a different idea but um I don't think it's very practical."

Outcast looked at the others. "It's not as if we've any good ideas ourselves. What's this one?"

So I told them.

Comments

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Now I'm trying to imagine a world where something other than mentador was horrific and forbidden. Maybe... aquador? Okay, that's hard to imagine.

Aha! Tempador. "OMG you're messing with TIME don't you know that could unravel the fabric of reality and even if it doesn't it's crapping all over the definition of what is true and false?!"

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Actually I was arguing that since the only way to save the ghempoch's life is by rearranging its mind, if Delight wants to do the sensible and Prime thing, she should encourage them to kill it!

In reference to a Tempador ban, that would make sense. It can't be good for the fabric of reality to have time go faster in one place and slower in another, even if that's the way it feels like, because you're causing a shear at the point where the two time-different spaces meet! Let's not even get into what happens if you cause a time loop by warping back 5 minutes into the past. And of course if everyone started doing it, pretty soon there would be a horrible muddle where your universe used to be.

[octantis.livejournal.com]

I think if a snarl like that happens, the tempador god just wills it to be sorted out, and it is. At least, as far as the god and the tree are concerned.

[terrana.livejournal.com]

The big difference between Tempador and Mentador on the World Tree is how much harder it is to achieve that sort of time warping effect than it is to, say, unravel a person's mind. If the difficulties were reversed, we might well end up with that very Tempador ban with Mentador becoming simply a curiosity.

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure its even possible to warp time the way Gavsy said I don't know anyone who has but maybe Sythyry does.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Oh you answered my other question in here, never miiiind! =D

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

And I was saying something like, "There isn't much difference between throwing a little bit of Mentador around and throwing a lot around. If you decide to use any at all, you might as well just go 'all-in'."

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

But we found a way that wasn't killing him OR mindraping him so NYAH!

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Oh good! ^_^

Telling someone clever like you that they can't do X is a good way to inspire them to do X. (wynx)

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

You're very tricksy!

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

*purrs* And you're very clever!

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, this. "NEVER BREAK CAUSALITY!"

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Since you like reading stuff so much, here is a plausible reason that messing with Tempador could be seen as a really, really, really bad idea (ie worse than Mentador) in some cultures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_paradox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

Are those really problems with time magic in your world your world is so weird.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

We... don't know. We have managed small temporal distortions -- places where time goes a little bit faster or a little bit slower -- but actually CHANGING THE DIRECTION that time is flowing isn't possible for us yet. We just worry about that sort of thing. Is full on going back in time and changing the past possible in the World Tree?? Or do you get, you know, prevented by a Time Angel/Elemental before you can try?

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Uh, the 'examples' of those problems happening in most of those links are fictional. Just for your information!

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

Heehee that's so silly I'm glad we have a good time goddess! Sythyry would be miserable if we didn't.

[terrana.livejournal.com]

I had to go and check the comments to try and work out which idea you meant. I wish I'd been paying attention to that discussion!

I do hope he doesn't decide to go and bother the cyarr instead as was noted as a possibility. That doesn't really seem any better than picking on any other particular civilization. The "destroy Prime civilization" thing may (or may not) be a god-given compulsion, but there is a certain logic to it. Primes have done more damage to everything non-Prime than any other force on the Tree.

My point is that it might yet be a genuine view the ghempoch holds rather than a compulsion, in which case it may not be possible to convince it of anything like this. The society is still there, still taking up all the land and resources, still crowding out those it doesn't include. That its inhabitants are now (ostensibly) bonstables doesn't change that.

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

Well he didn't say anything like 'Bonstables civilization would be just as bad!' I guess Accanax isn't that subtle or even at all subtle.

We didn't tell him to go pester cyarrs I think that'd just be mean yeah.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

WOW, you actually could follow that Locador stuff? WOW! I'm really impressed; I have lots and lots of difficulty following that sort of thing. I think you have a real gift for this sort of thing, Delight! That is probably really really really meaningful! Did you get to the part where I referenced Sythyry's journal and HCevian's statement that said that his race used certain types of math that very educated Primes like Sythyry didn't?

Anyway, now that I think about it, I have a few more secondary points from my mentador statement (other than that 'there isn't any difference between a little of it and a lot of it').

Here are a few of them:

1. This creature's mind is broken in a profound way. Just because it is DESIGNED flawed doesn't make it any less 'broken', regardless of how Healoc works; I'm not talking about that level. He has a mental compulsion which is detrimental to his ability to be himself or the person he wants to be, and is also detrimental to himself.

2. There are cultures -- even Prime ones (see some of Saza's statements about how she is allowed to use Mentador) -- where Mentador isn't considered all that BAD as it is in yours. Consider this viewpoint as viable: Mentador is a TOOL, like any other, and it can be used ethically or unethically, and steps need to be taken to ensure that if it is used, it is used without harming others and it is used ethically.

3. There are guidelines that can be made for the most ethical way to do something, which Secret is talking about. The idea goes something like this: 'If an adult, sentient and sapient person, without coercing or intoxicating them, and they have a full, detailed idea of what is to happen to them and the repercussions and risks of that procedure or event, than they can consent to the event and it can be more ethical to proceed than it otherwise would be.' This has lots of relevance in the realm of medical procedures, which is where I would put 'removal of mental compulsions'. Are there any laws in any cultures you can think of regarding that sort of thing?

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

I don't see how anyone could possibly be in their right mind and still consent to Mentador even Vae won't use Mentador to change her inability to help primes usefully.

I bet Saza was just trying to justify zir making horrible Mentador weapons I don't think there's anywhere but Birknazza that Mentador is acceptable.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Why not ask the Norren how they tell if someone is in their right mind when they consent to have medical Mentador stuff done on them? And what sorts of background folk that are okay with that have? You might learn something!